I’ve got no problem with them, but these are obviously kids who grew up in a different age than me, and it shows, I know what could seem a joke to me could come off different to them. Especially this being In the trades and the type of jokes we make here. I don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable, we’re all trying to just get through the day after all
Edit: I have learned, they used to be female, transitioned to male. (So trans-masc? I’m probably messing that up) Lesbian, and non-binary, thankfully they brought it up which was very helpful as I wasn’t sure if it was appropriate to ask
I’m trans, and have also worked with trans kids. Sometimes outed myself when it was safe - showing young trans men that yes, you can be a man.
It really comes down to “what name and pronouns would you me to call you by?”
If you want to go above and beyond: “would you like me to correct/step in for you if someone calls you by the wrong names/pronouns?” I feel this is a place where adult advocates can have good impact.
“Does your family know/should I use your legal name when talking to your family?”
See the child as a person who deserves dignity and respect, who is in a vulnerable position and does need unconditional support. Which is true for all children. You don’t have to put up a progress flag or wear a rainbow pin - these can certainly be very good things to do - but at the end of the day, just honor the child.
Hey, Non-binary trans masc person in trades here.
I can tell you how I perceive different types of co-worker if it helps you want to dial in what it’s like on the other side of the experience. There’s layers to the whole situation and as non-binary folks we understand what we are asking for isn’t automatically going to click and requires people to figure us out.
First up : Most of us end of day aren’t going to rock the boat for anything less than fully agregious behaviour so calls to report other people for being mildly offensive are probably not actually going to go anywhere. Most of us are scared of being labelled “a problem” so we just take the hits when they come. If you are a boss and notice a non-binary person sticking closer to specific people and avoiding others there’s a good chance that they’ve found the people who are safe and avoiding ones who aren’t. A great accommodation that can invisibly help is just to recognize this strata and if a task nessesitates putting people together try and pair along these lines. A lot of co-workers wait until other people aren’t around to let their nastier behaviour shine.
Now to co-worker types. Aside from the full on transphobe or problem persons there’s a range of different stages of cool people.
The “I don’t really get it” Co-worker pays lip service to the polite aspects of using pronouns. They are the type to introduce you to others by misgendering you and then flap their hands and go “Oh no sorry ‘they’”. We know they don’t get it or don’t really care. The misgendering still hurts but they are fairly benign. They make these accidents non maliciously and are afforded grace. If they step in it we basically disregard because they aren’t really worth the effort of getting too comfortable around. We make these accommodations for strangers daily. Annoying but nessisary.
The “in training” co-worker is one whom is encountering their very first trans person. They want you to be their Obi wan and their enthusiasm is a bit of a double edged sword at times. It’s tiring to teach people to dance when they keep stepping on your feet but the job needs doing. Some of us veiw this as our own brand of service to the cause of normalizing ourselves more widely. Some of us just don’t want to be bothered. Either way, just wanting to learn is heaps better than ambivalence. If you fuck up something, don’t make a big deal about it. It’s not that you’re a terrible person and should have known better. Our stuff takes practice and we know it’s not intuitive.
The “A little too up in our shit” co-worker is excited to know the real you but looks at you as a beautiful creature in need of preservation. They might seek to advocate on your behalf or behind your back but the attempt is clumsy and often at odds with a non-binary person’s desire to just get through the workday as a regular human and not make waves. Good enthusiasm sure, we’re probably friends but for the love of God we’re adults and we can sort out our own shit if need be.
The “Understands the Assignment” co-worker is just comfortable to be around. They don’t have to be the most tuned in to all the nuance about our specific needs in ways we require more out of partners, family and friends but they treat our basic requirements as no big deal, maybe they occasionally ask questions to check in if they catch us struggling or reacting but aren’t going to narc to the boss on our behalf. They either avoid all stereotypes associated with sex or in the case of trans mascs/trans femmes they treat us like one of the boys/girls. Gold standard.
Just be yourself & be open. There’ll always be troublemakers on all sides
As a trans woman who routinely has to deal with “shop talk” my advice is that since theyre young explain the way that it works to them and let them know how to speak up when shit gets uncomfortable.
Cleaning it up and getting professional and polite would theoretically be great, but the fact is that their career will involve this and if everyone has to clean up their language resentment will build and people will just exclude them. Meanwhile everyone should feel comfortable saying “too far” or “hey you’re hitting a sore spot” or even “not cool”.
This is really truly the best advice.
I am a straight male. But by definition I’m gender fluid. I have endured through my life no end of abuse for this, and it’s nothing close to what my trans partners in the past have experienced.
But in the end, it comes down to having a spine and being able to assert yourself.
Especially in trades, there is no end of ball-breaking and risque dialogue. If you are not able to defend yourself or say okay dude the joking has gone far enough, you are not going to have a happy life and you need to find something else to do to make money.
If we live in the online reality where “ideal” behavior is constantly advocated and expected, we are never going to connect to the truth of life which is that bullshit is everywhere and we have to learn to stand up to it and flow with it.
If you call somebody by their name, you can never mess up their gender.
Ok Alex, Shelby, Erin. Unless you mean like if you ignore the entire concept and rely solely on their name with no formalities.
I think they meant to just avoid using pronouns.
Which is an awkward and strange way to speak to people.
There are actually people who prefer you not to use pronouns when referring to them, and indeed always use their name. Might be awkward at first, but you get used to it.
People can prefer lots of stuff, “this aspect of the English language is not to apply to me” is a lot of cognitive load to ask for.
Good on ya for making an effort and being open to learning. I would buy you a beer if I could.
I’d be fine with you buying me a beer in their place.
Meet me at the bar this evening. If you show up, I’ll buy you a round.
Im omw 🫡
You’re not a dick for getting someone’s pronouns wrong… You’re a dick if you intentionally and continuously misgender them on purpose.
I still mess up my sister’s spouse. They’re NB, but kept their name, hobbies, etc. To me, they’re the exact same awesome person they’ve always been, so I still screw up and call them by male pronouns.
I 100% support them, but I screw up and it feels bad.
Well, I have had two people tell me very rudely that I’m an asshole because I got their pronoun wrong because they had it at the start of the presentation somewhere. And I also have had dozens more who corrected me politely a couple of times and then I’d just remember the right pronouns.
Assholes are assholes magrinalized or not.
Exactly. Sure it sucks when it happens by accident, but it’s to be expected to some extent. It’s when someone is doing it intentionally to fuck with you that it really gets under your skin. It’s disrespectful.
I can’t speak for trans people, but i would expect that the best course of action is to be yourself and dont mock anyone. You can rib and have a laugh, but dont open with a whole script of trans jokes. Get to k ow them, like you would with anyone and learn the boundaries naturally. If you think of them as different, you will be on edge the whole time and are more likely to mess up.
If you make any mistakes, just be sure to apologise, and i am sure any of them would understand. Ultimately, as far as i understand it, trans people just want to be accepted and allowed to be them selves and be a part of society. The only way that happens is if we dont treat them differently, whether thans positively or negatively.
Well, one thing I know is: make sure you don’t out them. If a kid has transphobic parents, you really don’t want to accidentally inform them their kid is trans.
I mean I just stay out of peoples personal lives as a principal
Great start. It also goes for work. Even if they’re open about it, just don’t allow comment on it at all at work. People quite often say “so there’s a lad working on X team and he’s trans but you’d never know” or needlessly say “oh yeah Katie, she’s trans”. Shut that down RUTHLESSLY around you unless the trans person says not to
I dont understand people’s need to share shit like that.
It’s up there with (though obviously not as private and sensitive as) when people tell you a story about someone they interacted with and just have to make sure you know the skin colour of the person when it holds zero relevance to the story.
I know it’s ingrained into what people say. Maybe it’s the unusual things people feel they need to comment on? Idk though
I like this idea and will do my best to put it to work. Shut that shit down. Thank you.
Np thanks for looking out for trans people!
Call me whatever you want at this point, but if it comes down to “A [type of person] has shown up at my job, what topics should I avoid?” it’s time to start updating the resume.
Reactions like this do nothing to further anything. Pointing at a post where someone acknowledges their lack of understanding and ignorance, a post where someone is trying to be more open and accepting, and telling them that they are the problem and should give up is as close minded and bigoted as the person you’re making OP out to be
Someone that lacks empathy?
Things I am likely to say to my team at work:
“I emailed you an STL. Please print two of them, and be ready to print 18 more if the customer approves.”
“Put on your safety glasses.”
“The lathe’s coolant pump is not working, I think it may be the contactor. Take a look at it when you first clock in tomorrow and let me know what parts we need if any; I’m going to need it up and running by Thursday.”
“Safety glasses go on the front of your head, not the top.”
“SomeCo has our steel order ready, take the company truck and pick it up. Make sure to get a copy of the P.O.”
“Put. On. Your safety glasses.”
“How’s it coming on those base plates? Can we get started on the brackets yet or are we still waiting?”
“If you get vitreous humor on my drill press, you’re the one that’s gonna clean it up.”
If you can’t handle being spoken to in this manner, you are not going to last long on my team.
Those are not the only words you utter at work. Don’t be ridiculous.
You are completely and entirely missing the point of this post.
When new people from different cultures or backgrounds assimilate into a new work place, being culturally sensitive is expected and the standard.
Yeah I’m more or less with the Republicans on this one. Either you’re suffering from gender dysphoria, and you should seek treatment from qualified mental health personnel, or you went on Tumblr as a tweenager and instead of being a greaser or punk or goth you’re “trans.” Either way, this is not your employer or coworker’s problem.
As expected, a complete lack of empathy
You’re right. If that dude works with you, I’d also suggest them to brush up their resume.
Empathy is a really stupid idea when all you’ll ever be is what people can extract from you.
Hey there, who hurt you so bad you gave up empathy all together?
Edit: added a missing ‘up’ in that sentence.
It must strain a lot of brain cells parroting ol musky.
Gender dysphoria is a mental problem, in the sense that it causes mental distress to be in the wrong body. The treatment is not therapy, it’s surgery to correct the body to fit the mind. A therapist can help identify the cause of the distress, but if the cause is the body then that therapist will recommend surgery.
I recall seeing research suggesting that trans people’s brainwaves more closely match that of their “desired” gender than that of their sex. It reinforces the idea that being transgender isn’t a mental issue, it’s a physical issue that causes mental distress.
A trans man isn’t a woman who merely thinks she’s a man, it’s actually a man inside that skull. Only the body underneath it is wrong. It’s as if tomorrow you woke up in the body of the opposite gender. That will (after the novelty wears off) start distressing you. Trans people didn’t wake up like that, they were born with that feeling.
Trans people are weird, but so is everyone else.
Ehhhhhh, I get what you’re trying to say, but also, yikes?
I mean I was trying to be cute there, but I genuinely think that this it the way to proper respect and non-bigotry in the workplace. You have lots of oddball people in every workplace of more than 3 people, and you’re supposed to function with all of them. Trans is just one more. And of course it’s all subjective, so the people you might think are perfectly normal are completely bizarre to some other people and vice versa. And you have to navigate around that too.
Just start saying ‘they’ for everyone that’s work related. No matter on LGBT status.
Makes it easier to not fuck up.So misgender 95-99% of people? Okay then.
I already do this with because of how many people I know and work with that have names not exclusively used by men or women.
People are seriously downvoting this?? Hot dayum lemmy really is growing!
I work with enough foreigners that I almost HAVE to do this since I rarely see them face to face and have no real indicators aside from their name. If your name is 20 characters long and 18 of them are consonants, I’m gonna use “they” at work, just to avoid any undue offense. So far, if someone had a problem with me it was because of my employer, not my own words or behavior.
Use they, unless you know their pronouns. Unfortunately, a lot of people use “they” because they don’t want to use the correct pronouns and it seems more innocent than just overtly misgendering someone.
It’s a good place to start. Sometimes a trans person wants gendered pronouns. But it’s better to use something neutral than to use the wrong one. I have always found that if you use the actual right pronouns, even once, it shows you are trying and that is appreciated forever.
I assume op is English speaking, but just fyi this doesn’t work in every language, would make things a lot simpler.
þey
This they gets it.
you’d use something like “person” to replace “guy” since “guy” is not a pronoun like he/she/they.
I like them and folks
I work with an enby and we use they/them. It often confuses people because sometimes we say a sentence then sub he/her for they and there isnt enough context for anyone to know who were talking about. I can’t imagine how strange it would be to only use they/them. Race and gender are our go to descriptors you’d get used to it pretty quick tho
As a trans person, no, do not do this. This is known as degendering people. It shows a total disregard for putting forth any effort to understand or respect others. We always know when people do this because it is still misgendering when you know their pronouns are not they/them.
While using they/them pronouns for all queer people or using a person’s name instead of a pronoun might feel easier for certain people, this is also a form of misgendering called “degendering.”
https://lgbtq.ucsf.edu/pronouns-101
It feels gross, it’s not a viable solution.
If you’re going to take people’s honest attempts at being polite as an attack, you’re going to have a bad life.
Hey, enby here. While I definitely benefit from they being a default I have enough binary trans friends who have this experience. What the person you are replying to is giving you is something referred to as nuance. A solve put forward by a well meaning cis person doesn’t automatically work just because it seems like it should to you. Sometimes it causes new problems and when someone tells you about them it’s a good idea to not assume it’s them trying to be a dick or difficult about something but actually explaining why that solve isn’t always a good thing.
If your intention is to make a trans person actually comfortable instead of getting defensive then listening when these things come up instead of telling them they are trying to be trouble on purpose is the play.
Not everything works for every trans person and inside the trans community there is something sometimes referred to as “the coward’s they”. It’s a well known phenomenon where a physical transition gets to a certain point the brain stops easily registering and sorting someone as being their birth sex because they seemlessly look and act as their gender so the automatic neurological system of assigning them a sex value flips fully to the new and desired setting. You see it on conservative media sometimes where they slip up and use the actual correct pronouns and have to correct themselves back over to using the wrong pronouns… Problem being is it causes the same mental redirect issues for a Conservative actively dodging the automatic reaction as learning to use Non-binary pronouns so as a compromise these people use “they” instead because it is easier to trick the sorter and strand themselves in the safe neutral ground where they can identify a person as “not actually a woman/man” without triggering their audience by using correct pronouns for a trans person.
When you use they/them pronouns for a binary trans person it’s interpreted by the brain of the trans person as you seeing and reacting to all the aspects of their body that makes them visibly trans and your brain’s automatic sex recognition system sorting them into this “not enough” category. It’s effectively less hurtful than full misgendering… But it still pings the bit of the brain that is seeing their own body through your perception via your words. It causes they same dysphoric reaction where their mind picks over all the parts of their body that would cause you to react by misgendering or degendering them. The whole point of preferred pronouns is to help us stop that mental reaction from happening as much.
It is perfectly safe to use they/them pronouns for cis people who do not have dysphoric reactions at all and for non-binary people who actively use those pronouns but if someone rocks up looking like they are trying to project a full binary situation it’s worth going for the full binary pronoun option because they are specifically putting in the work to be as obvious as possible so that people know that’s what they want.
Victim blaming and belittling other people’s problems is also lame, try not to do that, either.
“Ow this hurts me please stop”
“If you take this as an attack, you’re dumb and will be miserable, so just don’t”
Edit: that being said, if it’s an honest attempt, that’s chill af. But you can never really tell anybody’s motives, so here’s this advice on what to do instead(see above article). ‘The path to hell is paved with good intentions’, etc.
I’m gonna assume you mean well, but can you see where it’s probably better to just learn and respect somebody’s pronouns? I don’t think it’s that tough, is it? Like if you really don’t know, just ask. Using they/them is fine in that meantime 👍 but like learning somebody’s name, you should probably put some effort in at some point.
I think where you’re messing up is making the assumption that the person will stick with “they” even after learning pronouns. Defaulting to they when a person doesn’t know is just the smart, respectful play. As long as the person makes an honest effort to use the correct pronoun when corrected, that’s all that can be asked.
Being respectful is definitely the heart of it. I think it’s important to make a show of goodwill and listen even if you accidentally fuck stuff up. We’re all human and make mistakes, and like you say, it’s the honest effort that makes all the difference and is all that’s ever really asked.
You really put words in my mouth and seem to be a very negative human being.
I’m sorry, let’s start over.
Hi, what’s up?
No thanks
Did I do something to insult you?
Im trans with over 10 years of experience in the industry
–
There’s really not a lot to it. We just want a basic level of respect and empathy. Respect their chosen names and pronouns, and don’t ask them random questions about being trans unless they’re open to it. Trust them when/if they talk about their experiences, they know more about themselves than you do. Reassure them that their job is a safe space.
Happy to answer any questions.
Edit: if you slip up on name/pronouns, simply apologize, correct yourself, and move on. We know people aren’t always trying to be malicious. Hell, my dad still slips up on my pronouns.
Im trans with over 10 years of experience in the industry
The… trans industry? How much does it pay?
Lol gonna get me a job forcefemming people
Please send pricelist.
:3
HEEHAW!
And in what currency?
Blahaj and programming socks (the yearly bonus is a Thinkpad)
You’re convincing me to switch careers/gender
I almost forget the free fem&ms (breast mints) :3
Unknown lip filler shots in the parking lot of a Church’s Chicken
Is one tradition IDK how today’s kids do it
Depends on who you ask
Probably wouldn’t be a bad idea to do something along the lines of stating upfront that “if anyone in the company does anything to offend you, please report it to the appropriate channels. You’ll have our full support. We’re here to get work done, not to make people feel bad”
You’re not likely going to say by accident something they haven’t heard before, or to offend them in a new and novel way, But establishing and occasionally reinforcing the fact that they don’t have to tolerate it, that putting up with abuse is not part of their job, and that they have the boss’s backing at the same level of the non-LGBTQ employees should they find themselves being abused or offended, would probably go a decent way in minimizing the risk of something actually bad happening.
“… and if I accidentally say or do something offensive, tell me and I’ll try to learn better.”
This whole thread is very good
please report it to the appropriate channels
Telling them that you personally will be there for them is really the only guarantee you can make without blindly relying on third parties to act with compassion. So telling them to come to you so that you can then together go through the rest of the process is imo the better idea. They can always choose to just ignore you, but making them go to some shitty HR office by themselves also sucks.
Yeah, I’d only encourage reporting if I knew 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt that the person who would be taking the report is also an ally. And even then, I’d still hesitate to encourage it.
My workplace is… Interesting. I work in an arts department for an employer which doesn’t do a lot of art otherwise. Each department is managed by a specific person in HR. My department happens to be managed by a raging transphobe. We also happen to have the highest amount of trans people per capita than any other department… Because, ya know, art.
Our HR person requires that they use their deadname for all of their work stuff. Their work email uses the initials for their deadname. Their Windows username uses their deadname. Their RFID ID badge and name tag both use their deadname. Et cetera… She claims it is company policy to require official government names on everything.
Except it’s not. That policy doesn’t exist. It’s just something she makes up every time a trans person gets hired. There’s even someone in HR who uses a chosen name for all of their work stuff. They literally share an office. Our hiring manager has tried to go through or around this one specific transphobe multiple times, but gets bounced back to her every single time. Because apparently the “your department has a specific HR person” is a rule that is enforced throughout all of HR, but the deadname thing is only enforced by our specific HR person.
The hiring manager does what he can to insulate them from it, but there are certain things he can’t control. For instance, he orders them new custom name tags, so they don’t have to walk around with their deadname stuck to their shirt. But he can’t order new RFID ID badges, because those are printed by our IT department, and they use whatever name is in the system. He can’t change their windows username, or their work email address. To put things into perspective, our department is over 25% trans or nonbinary. That’s over 5x higher than any other department…
And what are those trans employees going to do? Go to HR to report it? As cops are fond of saying: “We have investigated ourselves and found no wrongdoing.”
Re: what are trans employees supposed to do.
At one point the path was documenting disparate behavior and taking up the lawsuit path, but I’m pretty sure my employer could write transgender on the reason for termination line and the eeoc won’t touch it under this administration
You’re not likely going to say by accident something they haven’t heard before, or to offend them in a new and novel way
Not OP, but you underestimate my foot in mouth capacity.
20 years ago, my sister was dating a jock. Real body builder type. Probably a bigger musclehead than most pro-wrestlers.
What I was trying to convay is that we should make a superhero costume for him to wear, and make a comic book out of it.
What was percieved instead is that he should run around town and suck everybodys nuts in his mouth for their approval.
I DARE you to try to connect how that came out so wrongly worded.
You can’t just leave us hanging like that, how did you word it?
Well maybe only say this if it’s true
Honestly, just tell them to let you know, in private if they feel it necessary, if you make them uncomfortable. In general, jokes about people being trans/gendernonconforming are ok, as long as it’s not the one “joke” – identifying as an attack helicopter/dragon/ridiculous things. Pretty much just don’t make fun of them for being trans, but it’s fine finding humor about their transition, if it makes sense. It’s generally pretty easy to tell when someone has a problem with you being trans and is going to be a dick to you under the veil of humor, and when someone is joking around with you. Just make sure they know to let you know if you make them uncomfortable, and tey not to be a dick. The fact that you’re asking makes me think pretty much anything you’d consider saying is forgivable at worst.
Edit: I kinda fixated on the joke part, mostly because everything else is pretty simple. If you mess up pronouns or anything like that, don’t make a big deal out of it, just correct yourself and move on. They’re just another person
I want to live in the timeline where a super-scientist gets sick of the attack helicopter meme and makes “attack helicopter reassignment surgery” possible and available.
If one of my besties thought they could live their best life as a helicopter I would absolutely support them.
